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DBZ and DBGT Power Levels
Topic Started: Aug 12 2013, 06:00 AM (3,314 Views)
Vertical
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ImmaGTBaby
Aug 15 2013, 08:36 AM
Yes but he was reacting to the fact that they made advancements in Base form and knowing that they can go SSJ after defusing would be enough reason. He could have asked them if they could go SSJ but they attacked Buu immediatly and for the remainder of the Base Gotenks vs Super Buu fight, he was just facepalming of how stupid Gotenks is. He then learns that Gotenks can go SSJ after they do it.
Unfortunately I only have access to the general release... which does not contain Piccolo's innermost thoughts on his assessment of Gotenks.

Piccolo, having sensed Super Buu, believed [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks stood no chance. Later, after roughly two weeks of training, Piccolo brought Super Buu into the RoSaT. As the boys began to fuse in their Base forms, concern showed in Piccolo. This concern was washed away by the small hope that was [Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks' strength... whom Piccolo did not know was capable of transforming into a Super Saiyan.

From this... you conclude... that Piccolo's reaction was as such because... he knew they could defuse, go SSJ, and fuse again... and he believed the [Ultra-Patient] Super Buu would allow them the hour and a half to reattempt fusion as SSJs... or did he have an elaborate plan to get Buu out of the RoSaT for a few minutes?

OR Piccolo thought he could have asked Gotenks himself... who was effectively mid-combat... if he could transform or not...

I wish I could patent whatever rubber it is you use... because that is one of the largest stretches I've ever seen.

ImmaGTBaby
Aug 15 2013, 08:36 AM
First, you were crtiizing me for using fan-formulas as evidence and now you using fan-formulas of your own. I told you why your theory can't work. Their's only two outcomes for fusion. It's either it works, or it doesn't. If it works, the result is a full powered Gotenks. If it doesn't, the result is a Fat/Skinny Gotenks. Gotenks only gained as much as Goten and Trunks did. And you can't just say that because "it happens in the story".
I was not applying the theory, or using it as defense for my stance; I was simply stating that they are possibilities to explain what is presented. This is not the same as what you are doing right now; presenting your theory/s as defense for your stance.

You are saying something is impossible because it contradicts your theory, when in fact your theory contradicts the presented story content, and is therefore inaccurate.

This is what we are given regarding the subject:

[Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks > [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks is effectively stated.
[Post-RoSaT] Goten/Trunks >= [Pre-RoSaT] Goten/Trunks is heavily implied through lack of statements, and Piccolo's initial concern.

If you firmly wish to stand behind the theory of fusion only being "pass" or "fail", then you force yourself into an exponential fusion formula.
If you wish to keep to the theory of a simple fusion formula, then you force yourself into varying degrees of "passing".

ImmaGTBaby
Aug 15 2013, 08:36 AM
Piccolo never commented on the boys strength as individuals so their's no comparison here.
The fact that he says nothing and is also concerned when they are performing the fusion dance implies that gains were non-existent/minimal... or at the very least, not enough in Piccolo's eyes.
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Zenet
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The Spirit bomb never weakened Freeza's full power.

The gap between SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza is to big its much bigger than your Vegeta and Zarbon gap.

Get rid of the x50 multiplier it is implied it becomes smaller. Though what multiplier you use doesn't really matter but I notice it is stopping you from placing the Base Saiyans stronger than what they should be especially for Boo saga.
Spoiler: click to toggle

It is also shown that it becomes even smaller during (Boo saga) for anyone implied to be stronger than Piccolo as Base. As shown with Goku's gap with Yakon."
Spoiler: click to toggle


Piccolo Android saga is shown to be much stronger than Trunks (fighting Freeza) He said he was confident with himself beating the Androids who were said to be much stronger than Trunks. Piccolo was about the same as the Android SSJ's.
Spoiler: click to toggle



Also Piccolo post Kami (weighted) was alot stronger than Imperfect Cell (first appearance). And Last of all you forgot to place Android 20 post absorption who was also stronger than Android 19.

There's probably some others small things but lll leave it at that since these were the main ones ^
Edited by Zenet, Aug 15 2013, 10:48 AM.
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There's a difference between not exerting yourself and not using your full power. Gohan was exerting himself but he wasn't using his full power. Like DF said, Gohan woudn't have gone full force against his little brother. OFG is making this a huge deal because I put Goten 3-4x weaker than Gohan (even though it was a sparring match and not a serious fight).
So you agree that Gohan was exerting himself.

Let's take a dictionary definition of exert:
verb (used with object)
1. to put forth or into use, as power; exercise, as ability or influence; put into vigorous action: to exert every effort.
2. to put (oneself) into strenuous, vigorous action or effort.


He wasn't going full on because, as I've said, they weren't going for the kill; however, you also need to exert yourself to improve whether it's training for a tournament or saving the world. You just agreed that Gohan was exerting himself. Exerting means tapping into most of your ability but holding back a slight amount because you don't want to cause injury, since recovering from injuries would delay training. How can Gohan be 3-4x stronger than Goten when he was exerting himself, and Goten was able to keep up? When people spar, they do it to improve. It isn't play-fighting or dilly-dallying around.
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@Vertical

From this... you conclude... that Piccolo's reaction was as such because... he knew they could defuse, go SSJ, and fuse again... and he believed the [Ultra-Patient] Super Buu would allow them the hour and a half to reattempt fusion as SSJs... or did he have an elaborate plan to get Buu out of the RoSaT for a few minutes?

OR Piccolo thought he could have asked Gotenks himself... who was effectively mid-combat... if he could transform or not...

I wish I could patent whatever rubber it is you use... because that is one of the largest stretches I've ever seen.


It has nothing to do with Buu's patience or Piccolo getting Buu out of the RoSaT. I told you that based on Post RoSaT Base Gotenks strength, he would know that SSJ Post RoSaT Gotenks would have made great gains as compared to SSJ Pre RoSaT Gotenks. Before Piccolo could ask Gotenks anything, he charged up to Super Buu and got his rear end kicked. Obviously he's not going to ask him anything while he's mid combat. For the rest of the Base Gotenks vs Super Buu fight (mind you this is a very short fight in the manga), he's scolding himself for believing he could beat Buu. Only short after than does he realize that Gotenks can go SSJ after fusing.

There's really nothing wrong with that. Your making me sound like i'm some sorta idiot. And to be fair, this makes a lot more sense than Base Post > SSJ Pre

Super Buu >> SSJ Gotenks (Post) > SSJ Gotenks (Expected) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre) > SSJ3 Goku (Supressed) >>>> Base Gotenks (Post) >Base Gotenks (Pre)


The fact that he says nothing and is also concerned when they are performing the fusion dance implies that gains were non-existent/minimal... or at the very least, not enough in Piccolo's eyes.

And how exactly would you know that? There's no scan so there's no way to compare. Simple really.

@Cenet

The Spirit bomb never weakened Freeza's full power.

The gap between SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza is to big its much bigger than your Vegeta and Zarbon gap.


1) It's a theory and it can be true. Freiza was visibly damaged after taking the Genkai Dama.

2) SSJ Goku was owning Frieza in the manga. Freiza only rivaled Goku in the anime.


Get rid of the x50 multiplier it is implied it becomes smaller. Though what multiplier you use doesn't really matter but I notice it is stopping you from placing the Base Saiyans stronger than what they should be especially for Boo saga.

All he said is that it was a little exageratted and there's still nothing wrong with the multiplier being 50x Base. It sure beats the theory of SSJ being Base + 147,000,000.

And Base Saiyans > Piccolo isn't fact. Neither is Piccolo > Base Saiyans. We continue to debate this even today.


It is also shown that it becomes even smaller during (Boo saga) for anyone implied to be stronger than Piccolo as Base. As shown with Goku's gap with Yakon."

Kiri and PL's are different concepts. They are not synonymous.

Piccolo Android saga is shown to be much stronger than Trunks (fighting Freeza) He said he was confident with himself beating the Androids who were said to be much stronger than Trunks. Piccolo was about the same as the Android SSJ's.

He was referring to #17 and #18, not #19 and #20 lol.

Also Piccolo post Kami (weighted) was alot stronger than Imperfect Cell (first appearance). And Last of all you forgot to place Android 20 post absorption who was also stronger than Android 19.



1)I'll put him at 510,000,000

2) #20 absorbed a much weaker blast than #19 did


@Buuberries

Read my response to OFG please

Edited by Yusuke, Aug 15 2013, 05:30 PM.
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It's useless to continue that point if you don't know what sparring is and why people do it.
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It's useless to continue that point if you don't know what sparring is and why people do it.

People use it to get in shape, not to get stronger. Like I said before, Gohan could supress himself to my level and I would be a good sparring partner. If Gohan and Goten were training to get stronger, than you would have a point. This isn't rocket science (like you and OFG try to make this).
Edited by Yusuke, Aug 15 2013, 06:26 PM.
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http://www.englishbaby.com/vocab/word/4736/get-in-shape

http://news.discovery.com/human/what-is-being-fit-111228.htm

He's trying to get far into a tournament. To get into shape is synonymous with getting stronger than your current state. You're right: it isn't rocket science, so I don't get how you're not understanding it.
Edited by Buuberries, Aug 15 2013, 06:33 PM.
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He's trying to get far into a tournament. To get into shape is synonymous with getting stronger than your current state. You're right: it isn't rocket science, so I don't get how you're not understanding it.

1) Gohan wasn't trying to get stronger. Yes, he does want to get far in the tournament but that doesn't change the fact that he only needs to get in shape.

2) Getting in shape and getting stronger aren't synonymous with each other. Getting stronger means becoming more powerful than you already are. Getting into shape could mean many things. If your overweight or underweight, that could mean losing/gaining weight to get to a desired body size. If your getting in to shape for a tournament, that means you would want to get used to fighting again (like he was doing with Goten as he was slacking off for 7 years).

This might not be rocket science yes but it seems your not even grasping common knowledge.
Edited by Yusuke, Aug 15 2013, 07:50 PM.
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Quote:
 
Kiri and PL's are different concepts. They are not synonymous.



Both concepts show gaps it can't be and isn't anything else.




Quote:
 
It's a theory and it can be true. Freiza was visibly damaged after taking the Genkai Dama.



Power ups replenish ki



Quote:
 
SSJ Goku was owning Frieza in the manga. Freiza only rivaled Goku in the anime.



Still The gap wasn't 20%.



Quote:
 
All he said is that it was a little exageratted and there's still nothing wrong with the multiplier being 50x Base. It sure beats the theory of SSJ being Base + 147,000,000.



He said he drew it with the sense of being x10 up until then.



Quote:
 
And Base Saiyans > Piccolo isn't fact. Neither is Piccolo > Base Saiyans. We continue to debate this even today.



Its only debated because some fans are denying clear stated facts also your keeping the Base Saiyans and kids way to low. Example Goten and Trunks were shown to be par with Android 18 and it is implied the Base Adults were stronger than Piccolo.



Quote:
 
He was referring to #17 and #18, not #19 and #20.



I don't understand Piccolo said he was confident beating the androids Trunks warned about who by the way cant be sensed.

Piccolo > > > SSJ Trunks (@ Freeza)


Quote:
 
#20 absorbed a much weaker blast than #19 did



Dr Gero is said to be stronger overall and so would remain so.
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It sorta looked like he kicked him high up in the air before he fell down. Not only that but the two criminals that Hercule attacked didn't even see his attack coming. He was that fast.

Spoiler: click to toggle

He punched him first, which is what you might be thinking of. His kick was down the hill. And he wasn't "that fast;" he was sneaky. There's a difference.
Quote:
 
I wasn't proving to you what was exactly on his mind in the interview. I was proving to you his forgetfulness and how easily it is for him to forget small things. That's why you can't make fact out of an interview. Unless it's stated in the manga that Krillin > Tien, then there's no concrete evidence to support it and that's the bottom line.

Tenshinhan wasn't a small thing. In fact, Toriyama had a certain fondness of his fight with Goku at the 22nd TB according to his Daizenshuu 4 interview: http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8057224&t=8044291
Quote:
 
Gaps aren't consistent. i.e. Base Goku and Piccolo were relatively close in power in Late DB, Early DBZ. Then in the Andriod Saga, the gap between them was Piccolo>>>>Base Goku. Then in the Buu Saga, Goku closed a portion of the gap. If that's not a good example, then look at Goku and Vegeta, constantly suprassing one another for the first half of DBZ.

At least I got you to admit gaps weren't consistent.
Quote:
 
The thing is, Yamcha wasn't the main concern. The concern was to stop two maniacal andriods from destroying mankind., not to save 1 person. Yamcha was a secondary concern. Goku wanted the top two people in that group to accompany him and Krillin was the right man for the job as he wasn't one of those 2 people.

How would you ever be able to prove that? Yamcha was going to die if somebody didn't get him to safety. Who was closest to him? Krillin. Naturally Krillin would be selected to fetch him, not the guy that's furthest away, costing precious seconds, and it's not as if Piccolo was going to do it. If Goku wanted the two top people in the group, he should've taken Gohan and Piccolo with him and left the humans to themselves.
Quote:
 
Yeah but your making the bad assumption that Krillin could use the same technique with the same effectivness as Tien.

If that's what you think, I'm okay with that. The point still stands that your logic is flawed.
Quote:
 
What would influence my decsion? The fact that Tien works his rear end off in training (not to mention he as a sparring partner to help). The fact that Tien is higher than Krillin in every official scan. The fact that Tien has done more to stop villians then Krillin ever did in DBZ. The fact that Krillin doesn't do jack in training after the Cell saga. And you? Just the interview which I already talked about.

The amount of training someone does means nothing in the bigger picture. If that was the case, Goten and Trunks would be the weakest guys on the team. Based on what we know of training partners, Chaozu would be getting far more out of it than Tenshinhan. Your last point about Ten isn't really in regards to his strength, it's about his character and the abilities at his disposal.
Quote:
 
Having a sparring partner that's a lot weaker doesn't matter. Goku's statement applies if the person wants to train to get stronger. If Gohan was training to get stronger, he woudn't have trained with Goten. He trained to get back in to fighting shape and sparring with anyone can do just that. Heck, Gohan could supress himself to my power level and I would be a good sparring partner for him (even though I can't fight for beans lol). This isn't rocket science OFG.

Can you explain Gohan having an aura and exerting himself if he was suppressed to 25% of his full power?

As well as this quote:

Context: after Gohan and Goten spar a little bit
Gohan: “You’re very gifted at grappling too, Goten! You really surprised me! I hadn’t known you were that good! If you train well, maybe you’ll be able to enter the Tenkaichi Budoukai too!”
Goten: “Really!? But Trunks is even stronger than me. We play-fight together!”
Gohan: “Really!? That’s how you guys have been playing?...*thinking* If I’m not careful, I’ll be outstripped…by these little squirts…”

Quote:
 
1) Buu could have killed Base/SSJ Gotenks with ease.

He could have, but he didn't feel the need to until Gotenks started annoying him with his Kamikaze Ghosts, and by then Piccolo had unintentionally stopped the fight.
Quote:
 
2) I was just showing examples of how fights just go on. If fights were to end abruptly, that wouldn't be very fun to watch.

Plenty of fights end abruptly. It's just that a lot of the villains decide to toy with the protagonists first.
Quote:
 
Even with the translation you have, my point is still crystal clear. No I take that back. WIth the translation you gave me, my point is solid now.

Vegeta: "Don't mind me. Finish him off! Build up your chi with Super Saiyan 3, and you should be able to obliterate him!"
Goku: "Well, I've been tryin' to, but...I haven't had the chance!"
Goku: "I'd have to rev up for a whole minute to get enough power!"

Notice how Vegeta says "Build up your chi" in the panel instead of plainly saying "with Super Saiyan 3, and you should be able to obliterate him". And that Goku says he needed the minute to gain the power Vegeta was talking about. That soldifies the fact Goku needed time to get to full power and he wasn't before. I don't understand how you can continue to argue beyond this point.

I can continue to argue because you're pulling a quote out of thin air. Where did Goku ever say he wasn't at full power? That's what you've been failing to prove this entire time. Both of the accurate translations I've given have never supported your argument. Both of them have only shown that Goku needed time to power up for an attack to wipe Boo out - never referencing full power.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”

Vegeta: "Don't mind me. Finish him off! Build up your chi with Super Saiyan 3, and you should be able to obliterate him!"


It's clearly referencing an attack (especially the direct Japanese translation), not Goku at full power.

It's probably rather inconsequential to you, but Daizenshuu 2 would support my argument.
D2
 
The battle is interrupted so
that Goku can accumulate ki

D2
 
In order to strike the finishing blow, Goku needed to accumulate ki for close to one minute. For that, Vegeta launches a do-or-die attack on Buu.
[1]
D2
 
Even a full power Goku can't defeat him.
[2]
Quote:
 
*See the comment I made to Vertical.*

I saw it and it's still implausible. Boo was impatient and couldn't wait the full hour Piccolo gave him. How can you justify him waiting an even longer period of time with nothing to do? That's a huge stretch, and you're making Piccolo look like an idiot for thinking it'd be possible.
Quote:
 
That only shows that Toriyama wanted them to fuse using Potara and not Fusion.

That's fine, but it isn't addressing what Goku said. The "only" way to beat Boo was the Potara. Prove Gogeta could've done the same when there's a comment as blatant as that in the story.
Quote:
 
That's just Buu being cocky.

Then find a contradiction. Statements are true unless contradicted.
Quote:
 
Baby left Vegeta in his Base form. Logic will tell you that if he did recieve that power, that would go towards his Base power. And with that kind of power, he would be SSJ4 Gogeta tier in his SSJ2 form.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand how you're getting to the conclusion that he'd reach Super Saiyan 4 tier with just Super Saiyan 2. Please explain that.

And this isn't my specific debate, but I had to comment on this.
Quote:
 
1) It's a theory and it can be true. Freiza was visibly damaged after taking the Genkai Dama.

He said he reached 100% - not 100% of what he could get to at the time, but 100%. There shouldn't be an argument here.

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P14.3
Context: after blasting Goku into the sea
Freeza: "Fu... fuhahahaha...!! You underestimated me!! Just so you know, that right now still wasn't my full power!! It was only about 70 percent..."

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P11.1-3
Context: with 5 minutes (ha!) before Namek explodes
Freeza: “In that case, I’ll show you my 100% power! There’s no way you can defeat me! Prepare yourself!”

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P1.3
Freeza: “I’ll settle this at full power. It’ll take 1 minute…No, 30 seconds…”

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P2.4
Context: as Freeza powers up
Goku: “His ki is swelling up and becoming full…So he’s finally bringing out this ‘100% power’ thing of his, huh?...”

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P3.5
Context: as he lets Freeza power all the way up
Goku: “I really might not get this chance again…The chance to see the strongest bastard in the universe at full power…”

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”


Oh, and Raditz is still inaccurately listed at 1,200 on your list.
[1] http://web.archive.org/web/20111011034439/http://kanzentai.com/trans-daiz02.php?m=09&id=all_battle#link
[2] http://web.archive.org/web/20111011042540/http://kanzentai.com/trans-daiz02.php?m=07&id=final_battle#link
Edited by Pyrus, Aug 16 2013, 12:37 AM.
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1) Gohan wasn't trying to get stronger. Yes, he does want to get far in the tournament but that doesn't change the fact that he only needs to get in shape.

2) Getting in shape and getting stronger aren't synonymous with each other. Getting stronger means becoming more powerful than you already are. Getting into shape could mean many things. If your overweight or underweight, that could mean losing/gaining weight to get to a desired body size. If your getting in to shape for a tournament, that means you would want to get used to fighting again (like he was doing with Goten as he was slacking off for 7 years).

This might not be rocket science yes but it seems your not even grasping common knowledge.
and what do you have to do in order to achieve either of those?

Quote:
 
OFF TOPIC: I've noticed a trend. Every time I debate with someone, someone else always likes the post that the guy I'm debating with posted. Really? Is everyone really against me on this forum? Liking others people's posts doesn't phase me one bit if that's what your thinking. This isn't a popularity contest
ive only been on this forum for about half a year but i've seen ofg/kyouka/vertical/cenet's posts and spoken to some a small bit, and they seem like nice enough guys. they dont seem like the type to judge someone's character just because people disagree with them. if you're misinterpreting the likes as an attack then yeah you're the one with a problem and you probably shouldnt take these debates personally.
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Okay guys, i' going to change the following in my list

- My SSJ Multiplier (I'm going to use the decreasing multiplier theory)
- Multipliers for SSJ2/3/4 and other SSJ transformations.
- Some other stuff

Until then, just give me some time. Ciao!

ive only been on this forum for about half a year but i've seen ofg/kyouka/vertical/cenet's posts and spoken to some a small bit, and they seem like nice enough guys. they dont seem like the type to judge someone's character just because people disagree with them. if you're misinterpreting the likes as an attack then yeah you're the one with a problem and you probably shouldnt take these debates personally.

Maybe I blew that out of proportion. I'm not saying you guys are attacking me. It's just that just because you guys have established something in the forum and I don't follow that, you all jump at me and tell me how wrong I am. I'm not taking this personally, it's just that i'm getting frustrated that i'm debating with god knows how many people and everyone disagrees with me.
Edited by Yusuke, Aug 15 2013, 07:59 PM.
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Liking someone's posts can be for a variety of reasons. We're not all against you. I don't mind you. At least you don't jump to insults like other people.
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I mostly skimmed this thread, but I just want to say I liked the posts that I agreed with. I am neither "against" you (I do disagree with some of your opinions, but I don't want to discourage you from posting) nor did I have any intention to come off as such. I could have made a post instead, but that would be redundant because I'd just be repeating what OFGuy, Vertical, Buubs and so on have argued (plus I'm not as interested in this stuff as I once was). Just thought I'd clear that up because I don't want anyone to think I hate them for something like nerfing Goten.

For the sake of this staying on-topic: Vegeta lost chi by forming the moon ball, so he'd be lower than 18,000 before becoming an Oozaru, so after transforming he'd be under 180,000.

Goku: “His ki went down as soon as he made that weird light!! What would he go and do that for?! I don’t get it!!”

Might've been mentioned before but I wouldn't know.
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Sorry about that. It just people debating with each other in general for any subject always end ups as some sort of argument. I don't really pick sides and still disagree with allot of things with people on this forum.
Edited by Zenet, Aug 15 2013, 08:58 PM.
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